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Author Topic: NiFe Chnia incompatibility? contamination?  (Read 5082 times)

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shay

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NiFe Chnia incompatibility? contamination?
« on: June 26, 2009, 04:05:05 PM »
This is an update on the Chinese NiFe cells sold in the USA and Canada for off-the-grid-use. If there is anyone that is successfully using Chinese NiFe's with US inverters we need to hear from you. The situation currently is that there are incompatibilities between Outback (and probably Xantrex/Trace) inverters as well as potential problems with the Chinese cells/oil/electrolyte. The market is about to collapse because of poor support from BeUtiltyFree who seems to be the only agent/consultant in the US for Chinese NiFe cells. At this time the Chnese NiFe use for off-grid power systems must be considered very experimental. I am attempting to get engineering support from China for their NiFe and NiCd cells and the systems that they might work with.    
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 04:05:05 PM by (unknown) »
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BigBreaker

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Re: NiFe Chnia incompatibility? contamination?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2009, 11:19:44 AM »
Test the open circuit voltage of the bank to be sure you have everything connected.  Then take one cell and plot voltage versus current using a length of nicrome and a multi-meter.  Juice is juice... maybe your configuration of cells is giving the wrong voltage or maybe your bank can't generate the amps you need?  NiFe is better at amp x hours than peak amps.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 11:19:44 AM by BigBreaker »
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: NiFe Chnia incompatibility? contamination?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2009, 02:48:43 PM »
Could you describe what problems you are having using NiFe batteries with Outback inverters?


And have you tried contacting Outback?  (It might just be an issue of tweaking setpoints.)

« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 02:48:43 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »
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dnix71

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Re: NiFe Chnia incompatibility? contamination?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2009, 03:48:14 PM »
What's their construction? Are they classic Edison type? Nickel-iron don't have high discharge performance like NiCad/NiMH and the cell voltage drops off quickly with discharge.


They also take longer to recharge.


They are not really suitable for UPS backup for those reasons (unless you have lots of room for batteries and don't mind the weight). They saw mining and railroad use because weight and size were unimportant in those industries.


I don't think there is necessarily anything "wrong" with them just because they are Chinese.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 03:48:14 PM by dnix71 »
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shay

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Re: NiFe Chnia incompatibility? contamination?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2009, 08:04:15 AM »
we/I were wondering a few things?


  1. How does one know if a NiFe cell has been contaminated by the wrong oil?
  2. Is it possible that contaminated electrolyte can permanently damage a NiFe cell?
  3. Can carbonate deposits permanently damage a NiFe cell?
  4. If a NiFe cell has been left dry for years can it be renovated?
  5. What happens chemically if a NiFe cell is left dry?
  6. How expensive is KOH and LiOH for replenishment and is this a major factor if it has to be done every year?
  7. Are polypropelene cases poor for KOH and LiOH so that the case limits battery life?
  8. Are Chinese NiFe cells inferior to others for any reason?
  9. Is a 100 hour discharge rate a truthful indication of a cells capabilities (vs nominal rating)?
  10. What is the difference between frothing, foaming, and normal charging of a NiFe cell (relative to oil covering)?
  11. Is limiting the charge on a NiFe cell by temperature (<50 degs C) a good way to charge?
  12. Is the electrolyte level in a NiFe cell more critical than other cells?
  13. What criteria should be used to reject NiFe cells for off grid homestead use?


« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 08:04:15 AM by shay »
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dnix71

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Re: NiFe Chnia incompatibility? contamination?
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2009, 09:58:07 AM »
Edison specified only distilled water to be used. If you use tap water, then the batteries may need to be flushed of electrolyte and refilled.


Edison also specified that the vaseline used to coat the outside of the battery case never get inside. I don't why the Chinese add oil, unless they have a problem with air pollution in China (acid rain) neutralizing the electrolyte. If there is water loss during charging, then add water. If the oil is not purely mineral, then you will have contamination. The electrolyte is lye, a strong base. High pH attacks organics.


Edison batteries get better with use and they improve with deliberate overcharging. In that regard, they may be better for a windmill dump load. Two things you have to watch, just like lead acid batteries, is not to let the plates be exposed to air, and operating temperatures higher than 115F.


Regular maintenance of Edison batteries included replacing the electrolyte. The battery is never to be stored dry.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 09:58:07 AM by dnix71 »
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electrak

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Re: NiFe Chnia incompatibility? contamination?
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2009, 07:08:07 AM »
I don't have any Chinese cells, I have some Edison's, I run 12 of them to run a cheap 700watt MS inverter, 1.2volts X 12= 14.4volts, abit on the high side, I can't charge and run the inverter at the same time, overvolts, charge is about 1.6 volts, so about 19.6 volts, to high for the inverter,  

NiFe batteries are not high discharge, so 100 hour rate works best for them, if you need 500 amps, you want ones that have 500 amps for 100 hours, they have a very bad voltage sag. If you use them for motive power that is not quite as bad as with inverters that shut down for low volts.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 07:08:07 AM by electrak »
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shay

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Outback's response
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2009, 09:03:18 PM »
The FlexMax 60 or 80 can both be programmed to a 60vdc nominal battery voltage, and that is indeed the highest you can go. You can make the adjustments on the charging algorithms; the absorb and your float voltages. If you configure your controller to be a 60vdc nominal, you can increment the absorption set point to 72vdc and your float to whatever you desire. But where concerns rely, is the fact you are using nickel-iron batteries. Let me just tell you that we are unaware of the outcome of using these types of batteries. They were specifically designed to charge lead acid or AGM sealed batteries. If you do indeed to proceed, just keep in mind this was never tested. There could be some complications with the charge algorithms/battery ripple. But we simply are not sure.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 09:03:18 PM by shay »
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shay

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the legal ownership of the above is included below
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2009, 09:15:12 PM »


Katee Wood


Technical Support Representative


Outback Power Systems


19009 62nd Ave NE


Arlington, WA. 98223


Phone- (360) 618-4363


www.outbackpower.com

« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 09:15:12 PM by shay »
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independent

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Re: NiFe Chnia incompatibility? contamination?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009, 05:08:18 PM »
I've had a look through Shay's diaries quickly and responding to this for anyone else to read.


Nickel Iron batteries represent a very solid and un-experimental approach to diy electricity storage. Many people on this site have used them or are using them. Me being one of those people. If Shay is interested, s/he can look through the multitude of posts on this subject using the google search feature. This site has the most information on the web as far as I can tell in regard to maintaining and using NiFe batteries.


It is a well known fact that most inverters will shut down at around 15.3v. It is also a well known fact that NiFe cells are fully charged at around 16v, or a bit less. So, there is an incompatibility there. I use Ghurd's controller for a fine grained approach to cell voltage. It works very well.


Another well known fact is the voltage sag of a NiFe cell under load. Big loads need a big battery bank.


So, there you are, Nickel Iron cells will work with inverters but with conditions. Not experimental at all.


The other place is the Homepower magazine articles from the nineties. Can be accessed via their DVD which has all of those magazine articles in one place.


I am very happy with my Changhong battery which I imported from China. I expect it will last a long time. It is extremely well made and I found the manufacturer and their staff on the whole extremely professional and delight to deal with.


Here are some NiFe battery references I found in twenty seconds:

The first story has a huge amount of information


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/8/26/10720/8984


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/4/15/20834/6559

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/6/11/31620/6868

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/1/8/211853/1744

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/5/23/11227/7917

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/9/7/102032/9976

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 05:08:18 PM by independent »
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